( Theme music playing )
Announcer: For the past few years Ricky Gervais,
Stephen Merchant and Karl Pilkington
have been meeting regularly
for a series of pointless conversations.
This is one of them.
- Testing. - Is that all right?
( Dings )
Hello and welcome to "the Ricky Gervais Show"
with me, Ricky Gervais, Stephen Merchant...
- Hello. - ... And the little round-headed buffoon
that is Karl Pilkington.
Hi.
( Theme music playing )
What is art? It's a very broad term.
It's a very difficult one as well.
Well, let me throw that question over to Karl Pilkington.
What do you wanna know?
Well, we were just trying to clarify what art is.
Uh, it's just something for your eyes to look at.
- Right. - It's just a change from the norm, isn't it?
- Um... - Mm.
I mean that's why I think most people have it.
But then the problem is I'd never buy a piece of art.
I don't see the point in buying something because I know
- that my eyes will get bored of it eventually. - Ricky: Right.
Have you got much art in your house?
- Yes. - Really?
Because it gives me pleasure and I don't get tired of it.
- I don't get bored of it. - Do you look at it every day?
- Well, it's there, isn't it? - Yeah, but other things are there too.
Dust is there but... Surprisingly, I've not compared
art d dust as often as I perhaps should.
- ( Laughing ) - But the thing about...
And this, I think, may be intriguing to you.
Damien hirst, of course,
is more of a conceptual artist like Tracey emin.
And a lot of what contemporary art does
is followed on fr a a guy called marcel duchamp
who I'm sure you're familiar with.
- Uh... - Stephen: Now he famously... ( Chuckles )
He famously took a gentlemen's white urinal
like you'd find in a pub toilet
and he put it on its side and he signed it
with a fake name and he put it in an art gallery.
Now he did that in about 1917, perhaps a bit later.
It just annoys me because they'll be snobby people who haven't got a clue.
And they're looking at that and they go, "oh yeah, I see what he's trying to say."
- Well, that might make them think. - Damien hirst...
I don't feel angry with Damien hirst really
because he's getting away with it.
But why does that annoy you?
Because it's people falling into the trap.
Damien hirst, before he dies...
I'll bet he goes, "what a laugh that was.
- I had everyone on. " - That's a very good point as well
because some people think that the greatest art form
of the last hundred years is marketing.
- Eh. - Some people say that that is his art.
That it's not good enough to do it.
You've gotta then get away with it.
And if art... if the point of art is to inflame,
I don't think anything inflames people more than the discussion
about whether something's art or if someone's taking the piss.
Oror if someone gets $50 million for something, do they deserve it?
- Is it worth a hospital? - Well, what do you think?
What do you think of the shark in the tank?
I think I was blown away by it.
I thought I had never seen anything like it before.
It was sort of spectacular because it is so huge and so vast
and to have put a shark, you know, in formaldehyde
and to have hung it in an art gallery...
It's very striking when you see it.
- Yeah, it is. - It's a remarkable achievement.
But what is he? Is he an artist or a fishmonger?
- ( Ricky cackling ) - Karl: What he's done...
anyone could have done what he did.
Yes, but not everyone did it. He did it.
- ( Coughs ) - ( Laughing )
This is an interesting point that you raise.
It's the same old point you always raise.
Not... anyone could have done it.
That's always the same point you make... anyone could have done it.
- They didn't do it. - But, Karl, you could say the same about Michelangelo.
Is he an artist or a painter and decorator?
Well, it hasn't caught on, has it? Like the crying boy photograph.
No one's having them in their house.
No one's gone, "have you seen the new trend... a shark in a tank?"
- No one's got the room. No one wants it. - ( Laughing )
And that, to me, shows you what's popular.
At the end of the day, if everyone wants one,
it's gotta be good, hasn't it?
But I think if people were given a chance
to appreciate more sophisticated things,
then they would.
And I just think that that's... I think that's true in all walks of life.
You know, it's an acquired taste.
And the best things are an acquired taste.
I mean I haven't got pictures in our flat
because of that mirrored wall I've got.
- Right? - Yeah.
So I mean it's tiny. You've been in it.
I've got windows on one wall, door to get in on the other,
kitchen on the other, mirrored wall on the other.
- So there's no way... - No space for art.
- There's no space for art. - I'm intrigued how you sit at home.
What's... where's the sofa?
- At home? - Ricky: Yeah.
- Facing the mirror. - ( Door opens )
So you sit looking at yourself all night...
- Yeah. - ...As opposed to a p?
Yeah, but at least that changes each day.
- No, it doesn't. - It does.
- The picture changes. - No, it's round and miserable every fucking day.
No no, honestly. It's good to...
Because you don't look at yourself otherwise, especially me.
I haven't got any hair to comb or anything.
So I don't look in the mirror as much as the normal person.
Whereas now, I'm looking there every day.
So you're sat at home staring at yourself?
Karl: No, because the telly's in front of the mirror.
Stephen: But are you not slightly distracted by yourself?
Yeah, you do. When the adverts run, you look up.
And if Suzanne's sat next to me,
I tend to talk to her through the mirror.
( Laughing ) What do u u mean?
So why don't you look at her when you talk to her?
Well, you don't... you don't have to turn your neck or anything.
There's no neck usage going on.
I can just look forward. I look at the telly, lift the eyes up,
look in the mirror, looking at me look at her.
( Ricky laughs ) And what does she do?
Well, we're used to it. That's... there's nothing wrong with that.
It's like there's more people in the room in a way.
( Laughing ) And they're further away.
There's nothing odd about that.
Why wouldn't you use... it doesn't matter...
Sorry, why wouldn't you talk to your girlfriend via a mirror all the time?
Is that your question?
Well, no. I think it's quite normal.
If your head is facing a mirror
where you can see everything in that room... remember it's a small flat.
I can see everything that's going on in there without moving my head.
- Stephen Hawking would be well happy. - ( Ricky laughing )
So I can look forward. She's sat next to me.
If I'm watching the telly, I can say something.
Now she's getting the sound from me still because she's sat close.
- Ricky: Yeah. - But yeah, we're further away,
but things look better from a distance anyway.
( Laughing )
So that's how you've managed to keep this relationship alive.
You're such an odd little man.
But no, it's not odd. You see, there was a woman on the estate who did use...
Have I told you about miss piggy before?
- No. - It rings a bell. Go on.
I think I told you ages ago.
It's this fat woman who used to be on the estate.
She had a three-Wheeler bike.
Stephen: A push bike, a pedal bike.
- Karl: Like a tricycle thingy, but a big one. - Stephen: Right.
She used to sit her husband in the basket in the back, cycle about, what have you.
She was known as miss piggy. Anyway...
Ricky: Oh, is this the one that she used to beat him up
so your dad pretended to be a policeman?
Yeah, that's it.
Anyway, the way she used to communicate...
she used to always go in quick save and Nick biscuits.
And if anyone went up to her to say "stop nicking the biscuits,"
she'd pull out a little mirror out of her bag
and she'd look in it but talk to you via the mirror.
( Laughi ) ) Oh God! How mad is...
- so she was insane. - This place where he grew up... it's weird, isn't it?
- It's like narnia. - It was really weird. It used to scare me.
- It's like a Salvador dali painting. - ( Siren wailing )
- You exist in there. - ( Ricky laughing )
Yeah. It's really really weird.
So hang on. So she used to talk to people
through the mirror because she was mental.
I couldn't sit, watch the telly
and look at me watching the telly in a mirror all night.
- Stephen: No no. - Ricky: That's weird.
- That would be really weird. - Why?
It's really weird, Karl. Oh.
I'd be very conscious of myself,
conscious of the way I'm sat.
It gives you confidence and that.
- And if you are sort of... - Gives you confidence?
Yeah, because you're seeing yourself more
and you pick up what habits you do and stuff like that.
So what have you changed through your viewing of yourself?
I sort of grew a beard through the week,
just something different to look at for a bit.
And then you get sick of that. Itit's like a piece of art.
Change that. Have a bit of a shave.
Can you see the back of the telly in the mirror?
A little bit, yeah. If the flat's a mess, it's a mess twice.
( Cackling )
Oh God. Oh.
Sculptures.
What do you think of sculptures?
I mean because that's something...
that really is getting into the 3-d world there, isn't it?
No longer do you have to represent something as 3-d.
You can make something. You know, is it...
You know, the statues are amazing, aren't they?
They're clever, aren't they?
I mean they always look the same.
Well, that's not true, is it?
Because recently there was quite a controversial one,
a huge one in London... the pregnant thalidomide woman.
- What do you think of that? - Oh yeah, I saw that.
- Thoughts? - ( Exhales )
I wouldn't have it in my house.
( Cackling )
Well, there wouldn't be room because it would just be you, Suzanne
and a pregntnt thalidomide watching telly.
- ( Laughing ) - I don't know what it was trying to say.
- It's... - Maybe she was saying,
"okay, we've had the human form.
This is an example of the human form."
Yeah, but do you think she started off trying to do normal
and it was like, "oh, I've chipped a bit off"?
( Cackling )
She... one of the arms got chipped off?
It makes you wonder, doesn't it?
( Laughing )
And why... you see that square? Trafalgar square?
You've got that... Nelson's column.
He's got one arm and a leg missing or something
and a patch over his eye.
And you've got the thalidomide.
Why can't they just do a full person?
( Cackling )
Oh!
That was what they saw. That was what the artist saw.
It's about confronting us with ctatain preconceptions of what that...
What we expect of the human form, what we expect of sculpture.
It's probably a little ironic comment as well on the famous rodin.
It's been wrapped up with all kinds of ideas of maternity,
of the human form, of what sculpture is.
Why wouldn't you put that in a big public place?
But what about the subject?
Did you think, "who's that subject? Who is that woman?"
No, not really because thalidomides are around
and we've all seen one.
It's not like a shocking... a shocking image.
It's one of life's little things that it Chucks out.
There are some out there.
- So it's not shocking, is it? - Amazing amazing.
I don't understand what you mean.
I think what I thought is it just goes to show
we could be sort of running out of ideas.
What do you think of people who are so angry at art
they try and censor it or they try and destroy it?
Do you think art should ever be censored?
It's where you put it. If it's in a gallery,
then it doesn't have to be censored.
If it's in trafalgar square
whereveveryone's wandering around, having a nice time,
you don't want a 12' cock.
( Laughing )
So it's all about where you put it.
I think some art looks better because of where it is.
Angel of the north... that's a bit of art.
But it's a bit of a surprise, isn't it?
- You're driving along a miserable motorway. - Yeah.
"H, h, what's that over there?"
Gives you something for your eyes to look at again.
Motorways are the most boring place to drive.
But you go, "oh, look, there's a bit of art over there."
Yeah, but then again, should you be looking at art
when you're going 70mph along a motorway?
Well yeah, because it's really big.
- You can keep your eye on it and... - Look in the mirror.
You can... it's not a problem.
Wait till you go past it and look in the mirror like normal.
So you like the angel of the north?
Becae e it's something inhehe middle of notngng.
Right, but if you put it somewhere else...
Stick it in trafalgar square, you'd go, "oh, orore clutter."
( Snkekering )
I remember we rere shown the cartoon version
of "animal farm" when we were about 15, 16.
We were discussing it afterwards about,
"oh yeah, Napoleon. Oh yeah, great.
Oh yeah, communism versus...
ohd d this bloke went, t," "you lot make me sick.
It was just a nice film about some animals."
( Laughing )
- Brilliant. - Yeah.
- What's your take on that, Karl? - ( Laughing )
Stephen: No, go on. What's your point?
Because you can see the irony there, can't you?
- - I haven't seen it. - No?
Uh, if you wanna do a serious point, don't use animals.
Nono? Well, I sasagree there,
because I think my favorite is probably chleles dicken
and I think the greatest sto e ever told is "a Christmas Carol.
And thers s only one way ththat couldvever be improved,
that absbsututely ghght, yeah. - And I think that you cld......
and I think people could take a lesson from that
and d ybybe other f fms th theheuppepe.
- "A muppet schindler's s St." - Ststhen: Yeah.
Ririy: Stephen:Ou could make e "schindler's list in space."
( Laughing )
"Miss piggy's choice."
- Well, we talked about that. - What?
About things like that in art as well.
Do you think that bringing something so serious
to the masses like films do...
Things like the holocaust and like "Sophie's choice,"
where she has to choose which child lives and dies.
Why does she have to pick?
Well, because the Nazis were horrible nasty evil people.
Well, which one did she pick?
I don't think that's the point.
- I love the idea that... - This is not a betting game.
No, but I imagine this is like "deal or no deal."
It's kind of you're down to the last...
- down to the last two. - ( Laughing )
- Karl: Which one are you gonna go for? - ( Buzzer )
- ( Laughing ) - Oh God.
But why did you ask, "which one did she choose"?
Because even... if he had said the names,
Robert and Allison, what difference would it make?
You don't know the story. Why is it...
No, because then I'd ask more. I'd ask more then.
If he said Allison, I'd go, "what was it with Allison that...
What did she have over Robert?"
That's what films are meant to do.
You question it. Whenever I watch a film with Suzanne,
I always say at the end, "what was going on there?"
- That's because you're an idiot! - Oh, Jesus Christ!
That's because you've just watched "a muppet Christmas Carol"
and you can't understand why a frog's able to talk.
I'm all for films with a good storyline.
- Yeah? - Brilliant. That's a perfect point.
- ( Laughing ) - What an extraordinary point.
This is gonna be... he's gonna follow this up, mate.
- He's gonna follow this up. - He's got something here.
Come on. Karl, go on then. What's your take on films?
Films are really good. You can get lost in them.
- Right. - And uh...
- you like one with a good story. - I like...
I mean whenever anyone asks, it's always the same.
It's "elephant man."
It's because... "mission impossible ii."
- ( Laughing ) "Mission impossible ii. " - "Mission impossible ii"?
These are what you consider great works of film art?
No, I'm just saying these are ones I've enjoyed recently.
There's so many films that I haven't seen yet.
You always say, "oh, have you seen so and so?"
What, "mission impossible I"?
( Laughing )
There's good news for you.
- "III" is out. - ( Laughs ) That's true.
One of the most striking art exhibitions
that I ever attended, Karl, was an exhibition of outsider art,
something I'm sure you're very familiar with.
Outsider art, of course, is work that is made by people
who are often institutionalized for mental health problems,
or they are just incredibly, you know...
The people who aren't in any way part of the art establishment.
Well, they're all right up to psychopathic murderers.
Clinically insane mass murders
would count as outsider art.
I went to an outsider art exhibition in New York.
It was incredible and I bought a painting off this guy.
He's a chronic schizophrenic.
And he paints in tar, like road tar,
that he gets from roads.
And he paints in that on wood he finds in skips.
And it's incredible because it's sort of like scratched in.
And it's amazing.
It's this thing of Jesus being helped down off the cross.
Admittedly I was walking around there going,
"this is fucking mental."
And Jane was going, "you've got to stop saying that."
Because of course some of the people are mental.
There was one bloke who had done a sculpture of a skull, right?
( Laughing ) And underneath...
it was like a little head with teeth.
Underneath he had put a sign that said "real teeth."
( Laughing )
Where did he get the real teeth from?
What I think is interesting about that
is how much therapy it provides
for these often mentally unstable people.
Which is another important value of art of course...
People's self-expression, people being able to give
a little piece of themselves through their work.
Do you not see any value in that?
How do you express yourself?
- Whistle. - ( Cackling )
- You whistle? - Yeah.
I found over Christmas I whistled a lot more than I usually do.
And I think that was just freedom.
- What do you mean "freedom"? - It's freedom.
Right, expand on this point, if you would.
Well, that's what art is, isn't it?
It's you being free of all the world's heaviness
on your shoulders.
See, that's a great quote, that.
That's great, that. For art is freedom.
I love that because I think you've really hit on something there.
Would you include the "free of all the world's heaviness" in the quote as well?
- I know what he meant there. - Would you include that one in it?
I mean I would include the world's heaviness in my freedom.
You know, some artists are attracted
to the dark side, the heaviness of the world.
But I just want to return to you whistling
as your artistic expression of freedom.
I mean, why do you find yourself whistling more?
That's what was weird.
So just take us through a typical day.
- When would the whistling begin? - So all right,
you spent Christmas down in Kent
with Suzanne and her parents.
- Karl: Yeah. - Yeah.
Could I suggest something?
Your freedom was thinking,
"I'm in my own place now. I'm going to annoy them."
Well, it was mainly... it's when we were playing scrabble.
And they were taking ages to have their go,
and couldn't have the radio on
- because the boiler affects the radio. - ( Static over radio )
You've got boiler problems down in Kent as well?
It works. It just gives something off every time it kicks in.
- The radio goes all staticky. - Ricky: Right.
So I just was sort of supplying the soundtrack.
- ( Ricky laughing ) - ( Whistling )
And what kind of things would you be whistling?
It was like... I just sort of did a whistle medley.
It was going from one thing to another.
- A wedley? - And her mum was impressed.
She was like, "oh, you can whistle, can't you?"
I was like, "yeah." And then she was saying, "how loud can you go?"
I was just doing all different levels.
Sorry, this sounds like a scene from "one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
The boiler is setting off the radio.
"I can whistle." "You're a good whistler?"
"Yeah." ( Mimics whistling )
"Oh, there's scrabble." Talk about outsider art.
I love the fact that Karl's life is like living in a home...
- It is. - ... When you're in your 80s.
- Yeah. - But you felt that this was your way
- of expressing yourself. - I just found it odd
because I'm not... I don't whistle that much.
I think just because I'm... I think I'm fed up
most of the time when I'm in London.
And you don't whistle when you're fed up, do you?
Whistling is a happy thing.
You never get an angry man
suddenly breaking into a whistle.
Well, the people who aren't whistling are usually pissed off.
But yeah, the bloke who's whistling, it's like... yeah.
It's the least... he's the least-annoyed person in the room
when someone's whistling. Same as holding a drill.
The only person that noise doesn't annoy
is the bloke who's drilling.
Everyone else wants to punch his face in.
- Same with whistling. - ( Whistling )
- There's no point in whistling. - No, there is.
- No, there's not. - I don't know.
I mean our window cleaner was known as like...
that's how you knew he was there.
He always whistled. And in the end,
he fell of his ladder, broke his front teeth.
- Ricky: Oh. - Karl: Retired.
( Both laughing )
- Well, because he couldn't whistle. - That was it.
Well, you know he whistled all the time.
Can't whistle, can't clean windows. It was a bit tragic.
Could he take along a whistle? Just pop that in his mouth?
- Karl: Yeah, I suppose he could have done. - ( Flute tooting )
- I didn't think of that. - Ricky: What about a flute or a recorder?
"Not 'London's burning' again.
Fuckin' clean the windows and then fuck off."
He didn't really think this through, did he?
- He retired at the age of 28. - ( Ricky laughs ) Yeah.
- Stephen: And his whole family were bankrupt with no teeth. - Ricky: Yeah.
And just a bucket and a squeegee.
"Why aren't you working, dad?" "Because I can't whistle."
"And the day you give up whistling
is the day I give up window cleaning."
- So you never whistle? - No.
I can't really whistle very well.
( Whistling softly ) No.
( Whistling )
Well, I don't whistle, but I can whistle better than that.
( Whistling continues )
What? You did this for hours on end while playing scrabble?
- Jesus. - About two hours.
- Two hours?! - Fucking hell.
- I'd put my word down... - Sorry, can we just hear that again?
- Just hear... can we hear a little bit... - ( Whistling )
So you were whistling after you had your go as well?
- On yeah yeah. - Fucking hell, Karl.
But hang on, let's just hear a bit.
- ( Whistling ) - That is Karl's self-expression.
That is his artistic self-expression right there.
Inane. No tune, no nothing.
( Whistling )
There's mental patients who have smeared canvases with shit
who have expressed more than you have in that.
Yeah, but it's not about other people.
I'm not there to please other people.
Ricky: You're there to annoy them.
What was the best word you came up with in scrabble?
Don't knock me at scrabble because I do all right.
What's weird is when I play scrabble,
my brain can come up with words
- that I don't normally say. - Oh, for fuck's sake.
Okay, this isn't... now I'm intrigued here.
Your brain can come up with words you wouldn't normally say?
Just words that I'd never drop into a sentence.
- Stephen: "Tree," "cat." - Ricky: Go on.
- "Squirm." - ( Ricky cackling )
That's using a q. It's worth 10, that.
( Laughing continues )
It's not bad, is it? Now I'd never say that.
I've never heard you... I don't think I've ever heard you say "squirm," no.
- ( Stephen laughs ) - I think that you're right, Karl.
I've never heard you say "squirm."
- Weird, isn't it? - Yeah, it is weird.
And yet your brain popped that one out.
Yeah. When it wasn't my go, I'd just...
- ( Whistling ) - ( Laughing ) Oh God! Christ.
Anyway, so that's sort of doing art for yourself
as opposed for other people.
I don't think that you can count what you just did then as art.
Hobby maybe... craft, pastime.
I don't think you can count that as art.
I'm not being funny. I'm being a bit snobby here,
but I think there's a difference between Beethoven and...
( Whistling )
"Squirm." ( Whistling ) ( Stephen laughs )
"There's a q in that."
Sync and correction by Mlmlte www.addic7ed.com